May 2009
125 posts
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Ingamar. That’s all I gotta say. If you don’t know, you do now. Quickest improvement in a poet ever. Holy shit. Ingamar equals beast.
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re re: Things I want to say to every secular progressive/liberal:
Not every progressive/secular individual condemns religion and religous people. I certainly don’t take issue with people who believe. I take issue with religous people pushing their morality on other people through various means, the most insidious of which is through legislation and government. I take issue with Christians spending tens of millions of dollars to fight the ability for a loving couple to wed while those who Jesus was most concerned with (the sick and dying and homeless) go without that money to help them. I do have an issue with the far right, because it reaks of bigotry and a lack of priority. Truly…what.would.jesus.do? He wouldn’t fight gay marriage over feeding the hungry. And that’s a fact. :)
This is all certainly true. First and foremost, I obviously agree that the progressive political agenda is more compatible with Christianity than the conservative political agenda is.
And I’ve definitely met people like you and Sierra who are able to suspend their disgust (at religion) in my presence and in most rational conversations. But it is too easy for an unvbelievably large percentage of secular progressives I’ve met to sit in their own secular progressive circles and badmouth everybody who disagrees with them. It seems like it’s instinctual for such a person to read a news story about Christian Scientists letting their children die without medical treatment for cancer and immediately jump to the “I hate religious zealots” mode of thinking.
There is a difference between rational, respectful political dialogue on the one hand and name-calling and hatred on the other. But I’ve seen pretty much everybody—on every side of every argument—cross the line when they weren’t thinking.
Hate, disgust, insults, and disrespect are diametrically opposed to the true progressive movement. They also prevent us from being able to work with the other side in order to convert them. And moreover, it alienates the religious zealots out there who consider ourselves progressives. I’ve never thought about voting Republican based on the issues, but sometimes I feel so rejected and hated by the progressive community that it feels like I would fit in better over there. Obviously, I wouldn’t—but I still feel alienated by many secular progressives’ inability to be warm, loving, and accepting of people who believe different things than they do.
You’ve got to understand: those people that you like to make jokes about, the people you call idiots and zealots and hatemongers—they’re my people, no matter how misguided they are. On a practical level, I have the responsibility of bringing them onto the side of truth, and your culture wars don’t help me do that. Further, I feel like when you insult my people, you are insulting me.
THIS is gonna be fun.
I mean…I’m certainly not above calling a duck a duck and a bigot a bigot. Regardless of whether or not that’s the nice way to hande things. I’m a believer that ignoring problems is ….the…problem. So i’m always easily provoked into debate. But that’s what it is…debate. Until we see what happened on your thread on homosexuality and that gentleman whose name escapes me (thankfully). I won’t see hatred come out of someone else’s mouth and just chalk it up to “oh well those are just his beliefs, shucks”. Clearly, he can believe those things, but when he speaks them in a public forum he’s opening himself up to critique and in my case, screaming and yelling. You are not a bigot, you are not a hatemonger, you are not a zealot, you are not an idiot. Some of the people who believe what you do, ARE those things. Some of the people who believe what I do, ARE those things. There are hateful idiots in every clan. (and klan) HA!
Ive always seen faith as a utterly terrifying thing. Doesn’t mean i hate the faithful. Means for the most part, Im wary of …and keep my distance from the radically conservative and religous. It’s because in my experience (which is deep, I went to parochial schools for fifteen years and have written extensively on the topic), people of those mindsets are very often scary to me. There have been countless exceptions. You being probably the best of the best examples (and i wouldnt call you conservative on 90% of things). Doesn’t mean that your overwhelming goodness can outweigh the mile-high pile of negative experience I’ve witnessed in my life at the hands of the intensley devoted. Im a human afterall, and ofcourse I am prone to the prejudices of my past. But I’m pretty sure I never treated you with anything but respect, because people I love, love you. And frankly, i think you’re fucking smart about the whole deal. You’ve thought this out. You have an opinion that stems from a deliberate and careful debate of the issues. That shows. And its something to be proud of. If every Christian could explain themselves in the way you do, I’d get into far fewer facebook wars. :) Tumblr wars?
What
Does a vegan put on a sandwich?
animal crackers.
touche sean gallagher. touche
What
Does a vegan put on a sandwich?
Things I want to say to every secular progressive/liberal:
1. Just because I’m a Christian does not mean I’m a Republican.
2. Just because I’m a Christian does not mean I’m unintelligent or ignorant.
3. Just because some people are Republicans does not mean they are unintelligent or ignorant.
4. Your condemnations of religion & religious peoples are often just as self-righteous and intolerant as the very ideas and people you are condemning.
4a. This also makes you a hypocrite insofar as you believe in tolerance and diversity.
5. Religion is not unique in its capacity to be manipulated by evil people for evil purposes—science created the atom bomb, for example.
6. Religion is largely responsible for most popular movements in the name of peace, justice, and freedom throughout history. And who do you think created the university system and education more generally?
—-
Mostly, this: if you cannot truly respect people you disagree with, if you cannot honestly appreciate their right to believe what they want, if you are disgusted by these people and cannot help but insult and hate them—then you are not a progressive, you are not helping.
Radical inclusivity, respect, love, and nonviolence. This is what makes the progressive agenda true, powerful, and necessary. Abandon this and you are no better than that which we are trying to overcome.
I’ll jump in on this. Breifly.
Mike’s one of the smartest people I know. He’s also a believer. I’m the opposite (on both counts likely). But i’ll say this:
4. Your condemnations of religion & religious peoples are often just as self-righteous and intolerant as the very ideas and people you are condemning.
Not every progressive/secular individual condemns religion and religous people. I certainly don’t take issue with people who believe. I take issue with religous people pushing their morality on other people through various means, the most insidious of which is through legislation and government. I take issue with Christians spending tens of millions of dollars to fight the ability for a loving couple to wed while those who Jesus was most concerned with (the sick and dying and homeless) go without that money to help them. I do have an issue with the far right, because it reaks of bigotry and a lack of priority. Truly…what.would.jesus.do? He wouldn’t fight gay marriage over feeding the hungry. And that’s a fact. :)
